Session Start: Sat Oct 19 23:57:31 2002
* Logging #demogame to 'c:\my documents\#demogame.log'
[23:57] *** Ehecatl_Atzin (Ehecatl@200.38.21.eL67=) 4[joined] #demogame.
[23:57] *** ChanServ 4[voices] Ehecatl_Atzin
[23:59] *** bill_in_pdx (~java@=qi90-310-0-69.client.attbi.com) 4[joined] #demogame.
[23:59] *** ChanServ 4[voices] bill_in_pdx
[23:59] <+BlueStrider> Hello Ehecatl! :)
[23:59] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> hey Strider
[23:59] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> what u doing?
[23:59] <+CivGeneral> Hi Ehecatl
[23:59] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> hey General
[00:00] *** spycatcher (~GC@=9Qlvt-222-54-723-amuu.cox-internet.com) 4[joined] #demogame.
[00:00] *** ChanServ 4[voices] spycatcher
[00:00] *** CT_Playing_Civ3 has 4[morphed] into "Chieftess"
[00:00] <+CivGeneral> We are getting ready for the big day tonight
[00:00] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> ?
[00:00] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> war with the aztecs?
[00:00] <+BlueStrider> The war with the Aztecs
[00:00] <@Octavian_X> the war...
[00:01] <+CivGeneral> And Aztec Chocolate
[00:01] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> is the military ready?
[00:01] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> lol
[00:01] *** ToreHund (~Absinth@=vLnl769627o758-8067.bb.online.no) 4[joined] #demogame.
[00:01] *** ChanServ 4[voices] ToreHund
[00:01] <+BlueStrider> And Aztec Cities :)
[00:01] <+CivGeneral> The Military is ready
[00:01] <@Eklektikos> just trying to figure out where we're supposed to be building our next city....
[00:01] <+CivGeneral> The cooks are ready
[00:02] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> good :)
[00:02] <@Octavian_X> with doughnuts?
[00:02] <@Chieftess> If I had my STG, I'd say my traders are ready with the spices! :)
[00:02] * +BlueStrider wonders if CG is going to get addicted to choc like Octavian is with Doughnuts
[00:02] * +CivGeneral thinks the Fanatikan Chefs are getting impaitent
[00:02] * @Chieftess feels nostalgic
[00:02] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> lol
[00:03] * +Ehecatl_Atzin thinks everyone has the prewar jitters!
[00:03] <+CivGeneral> The Fanatikan Chefs has been waiting for the Aztec chocolate to come
[00:03] * @Chieftess covers her eyes
[00:03] <@Octavian_X> mmmm...  chocolate doughnuts...
[00:03] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> @CG -- did they bring their hammers?
[00:03] * +BlueStrider hopes he doesn't get smacked with the const. like he did at the victory chat
[00:04] * @Chieftess greets BlueStrider with the constitution. ;-)
[00:04] <@Chieftess> It was a miniature one.
[00:04] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> lol
[00:04] <+CivGeneral> They came with thoes "meat tenderizing" hammers
[00:04] <@Chieftess> A souvenier I picked up.
[00:04] <@Eklektikos> Anyone happen to know where Stuck's getting the info for his city placement plans?
[00:04] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> oh, no good, mexican chocolate comes hard as stone
[00:04] <@Chieftess> While visiting Valhalla.
[00:04] *** Guest80799 (~java@=D5owt-67-03-062-36.rochester.rr.com) 4[joined] #demogame.
[00:04] <@Chieftess> I've seen those!
[00:04] *** ChanServ 4[voices] Guest80799
[00:04] <@Chieftess> :)
[00:04] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> :)
[00:04] <+BlueStrider> Dang it CT!!! You smacked me at the victory chat to!!! :'S
[00:05] <+CivGeneral> Ill tell the chefs to get there chizzle and hammers
[00:05] <@Octavian_X> tell them to send a block to my castle
[00:05] *** Guest80799 has 4[morphed] into "donsig"
[00:05] <+donsig> war start yet?
[00:05] * +CivGeneral tells the head chefs to get there chizzles and hammers ready
[00:05] <+CivGeneral> not yeat
[00:05] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> a block?!
[00:05] <+donsig> still pre-turn?
[00:06] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> nope
[00:06] <+BlueStrider> yup
[00:06] <+BlueStrider> ??
[00:06] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> lol
[00:06] <@Eklektikos> not yet... still trying to work out where Stuck's city building plans have materialised from
[00:06] * +CivGeneral thinks Octavian X is going to make a doughnut with Aztec Chocolate
[00:06] * @Octavian_X is confused
[00:06] <@Chieftess> Tell, them to send them to the Trade Department!
[00:06] <@Chieftess> Spiced Chocolate Donuts!
[00:06] <+BlueStrider> ??
[00:06] <@Octavian_X> hmmmmmmm....
[00:06] <@Eklektikos> well, that's what I'm doing at least
[00:06] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> I feel a chocolate tax is comming up...
[00:06] <+donsig> if they are from SAaM they're from the deep recesses of his mind
[00:06] <+BlueStrider> ;-P Nasty! Doughnuts! 
[00:06] <@Octavian_X> hey!
[00:07] <+BlueStrider> :-P
[00:07] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> ooooooooohh
[00:07] * @Octavian_X slaps BlueStrider around a bit with a large trout
[00:07] <@Chieftess> Ehecatl, if this chocolate is as hard as you say, perhaps it can become currency!
[00:07] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> burn!
[00:07] <@Chieftess> :)
[00:07] <+CivGeneral> Mmmmmm, Chocolate doughnut -Homer
[00:07] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> hey! edible money!!
[00:07] * +BlueStrider shots everyone with a 50 cal automatic trout
[00:07] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> good idea!
[00:07] <@Octavian_X> thats not good...
[00:07] <@Octavian_X> i would eat all min
[00:07] <+BlueStrider> lol
[00:07] <+CivGeneral> What happens when it melts in our pockets
[00:07] <+BlueStrider> We'd all be poor if we made edible moneny
[00:07] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> it doesn't melt
[00:08] * @Eklektikos is seriously thinking about turning on the auto-kicker and adding "chocolate" and "doughnut" to the list....
[00:08] <+BlueStrider> lol
[00:08] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> LOL
[00:08] <+donsig> there's no poll on city placement
[00:08] <+CivGeneral> lol
[00:08] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> there isn't?
[00:08] <@Octavian_X> http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=548839#post548839
[00:08] <+BlueStrider> Eklek: While at it why not add lit & monarcy to that list?
[00:08] <+donsig> spot vote on city placement?
[00:08] <@Octavian_X> that should show city placement
[00:08] <@Eklektikos> this is what I'm realising also, donsig....
[00:09] <+CivGeneral> The city on the hill
[00:09] <+CivGeneral> by the cow
[00:09] <@Octavian_X> we should get a map with labels ready...
[00:09] <+donsig> that link is not a poll
[00:10] <@Octavian_X> he must not have polled...
[00:10] <+donsig> this will be a tough spot vote if we have many options
[00:10] <+CivGeneral> true
[00:10] <@Octavian_X> this link has the cities SAaM wanted...
[00:10] <@Octavian_X> http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=548839
[00:10] <@Eklektikos> ugh.. I loathe spot votes
[00:10] <+donsig> I will probably miss the vote as I can't stay long
[00:11] <+donsig> I don't like either of those sites MR. VP
[00:11] <+bill_in_pdx> There is no poll, and actually there are two discussion as well
[00:11] <+bill_in_pdx> http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34427
[00:11] <+bill_in_pdx> Chieftess posted a good plan there as well
[00:11] <+BlueStrider> Someone posted a discussion insrtead of a poll...
[00:11] *** sike1 (~java@=NJsrq91-zzd-yn-8-76.rasserver.net) 4[joined] #demogame.
[00:11] *** ChanServ 4[voices] sike1
[00:12] <@Octavian_X> i can feel the Great City Debates coming on...
[00:12] <+CivGeneral> The Great City Debates
[00:12] <@Chieftess> hehe...
[00:12] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> hehehe
[00:12] <+BlueStrider> It can't be worst than the Great Trade Debates
[00:12] <@Chieftess> That'll be something for the annals of Fanatikan history. :)
[00:13] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> good! the history department needs stuff (now that we have writing...)
[00:13] <@Chieftess> haha
[00:13] <+CivGeneral> First, there was the Great Trade Debates. Now get ready for the sequal, The Great City Debates
[00:13] <@Octavian_X> sounds like a bad movie
[00:13] <+BlueStrider> lol
[00:13] <+CivGeneral> lol
[00:13] <@Chieftess> sounds like a bad sequek
[00:13] <@Chieftess> sounds like a bad sequel
[00:13] * +CivGeneral wonders who would direct it
[00:13] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> lol
[00:13] <@Chieftess> haha
[00:14] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> annonymous director
[00:14] <+CivGeneral> Or the Abstain Director
[00:14] <@Chieftess> yeah!
[00:14] <@Eklektikos> oh no... not again.... this is a different situation
[00:14] <+spycatcher> hehe
[00:14] <@Eklektikos> with trades we could find a solution that would please everyone
[00:15] <+donsig> well, I must go
[00:15] <@Chieftess> bye
[00:15] <+BlueStrider> Eklek: Maybe you can solve the science debate also?
[00:15] <@Octavian_X> bye
[00:15] <+BlueStrider> bye
[00:15] <@Eklektikos> that's not going to be possible when placing a city...
[00:15] <+donsig> My choice for city location is 3 tiles west of Bavaria
[00:15] <@Eklektikos> bye Donsig
[00:15] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> bye
[00:15] <+donsig> bye
[00:15] *** donsig has quit IRC (QUIT: User exited)
[00:15] <@Octavian_X> let's just follow SAaM's instruction...
[00:16] <@Eklektikos> or lets' not... this is not democratic...
[00:17] <@Octavian_X> then, let's get a map and vote!
[00:17] <@Eklektikos> I can't place the city according to the will of the people when no-one has bothered to find out what the will of the people actually is
[00:17] <+sike1> what's not democratic
[00:17] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> a rebel city! hehehe
[00:17] *** Guest33606 (Chieftess@=2ugvu13.bcpl.net) 4[joined] #demogame.
[00:17] *** ChanServ 4[voices] Guest33606
[00:17] <+BlueStrider> Eklek: Democratic involves political parties standing up for citizens views and causing choas..... We have a more peaceful sitution here
[00:17] <+CivGeneral> hehe
[00:17] <@Chieftess> Just don't tell dis that. :)
[00:17] <@Octavian_X> lol
[00:17] <+CivGeneral> Hell migt get some ideas
[00:18] *** Guest33606 (Chieftess@=2ugvu13.bcpl.net) 4[left] #demogame.
[00:18] <+BlueStrider> CG: He already has some ideas ;)
[00:18] <+CivGeneral> *Might
[00:18] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> lol
[00:18] * +BlueStrider remembers the Civil War from the last game
[00:18] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> that was a good one!
[00:18] <+sike1> this is why we don't knoe where to place the city
[00:18] * +CivGeneral wonders if it is going to happen in DG2
[00:19] *** rangers85 (rangers85@=bDxhe-938-32-12-zerd.cox-internet.com) 4[joined] #demogame.
[00:19] *** ChanServ 4[voices] rangers85
[00:19] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> well, at least we can start the war :)
[00:19] <+BlueStrider> CG: Feel like causing a Civil War? Military vs Science Department again?
[00:19] <@Octavian_X> no.....
[00:19] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> against the aztecs I mean , hehehehe
[00:19] <+CivGeneral> no
[00:19] <+BlueStrider> :(
[00:19] *** spycatcher has 4[morphed] into "bleep_the_spy"
[00:19] <+BlueStrider> Oh well.... 
[00:19] <+plexust> so, what did i miss? i have been putting away groceries since 12am (gmt)
[00:20] <+CivGeneral> Sorry, I beleve that the departments should work as a team, not fight one another :)
[00:20] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> how idealist :P
[00:20] <+plexust> lol
[00:20] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> j/k
[00:20] <+BlueStrider> CG: Actually Falcon and I just did that for fun.... It got boring about that time.... We still worked together fine
[00:20] <@Octavian_X> can we just decide the city placement and get on?
[00:21] <+sike1> i think we should follow the instructions
[00:21] <+plexust> heh, dis and i were planning Ameri succession, never went through with it though :)
[00:21] <+BlueStrider> No... We can't, because are const. is screwed up and it takes an hour just to get what you want done
[00:21] <@Octavian_X> i agree with sike...
[00:21] <+bill_in_pdx> The constitution is not the problem here, that was approved by all the people, the problem is failure of leaders to lead their departments and post polls to the people
[00:22] <+sike1> you got that right
[00:22] <@Eklektikos> ok... here's the situation... I can't find a poll to tell me where to send the settler. I can't support Stuck's city placement plans, because they seem very arbitrary. A spot vote isn't going to work, because there are too many possible options and the decision is too important to be made on the fly in the chat anyway. A settler gets built next turn, and a second one in 6 turns.
[00:23] <+BlueStrider> Bill & Sike: Go tell Donsig that.... I just use the polls he posts to make the decisions
[00:23] <@Eklektikos> The solution, which I guarantee you're all going to hate, is this:
[00:23] <+plexust> dang it, i thought we worked this out...
[00:23] <@Octavian_X> let's throw him up in the air and see where it labds
[00:23] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> don't cancel the t/c!
[00:23] <+sike1> so we're calling off the chat?
[00:23] <+bill_in_pdx> Actually, I was referring to the lack of a poll for city placement ;-)
[00:23] <+plexust> i say we let mr. president decide
[00:23] <@Octavian_X> ek's going to put off the tc
[00:23] <+plexust> dang
[00:23] <+CivGeneral> dang
[00:24] <@Chieftess> Maybe until tomorrow? 
[00:24] <@Chieftess> Get a poll up tonight.
[00:24] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> can't we just freeze the settler?
[00:24] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> declare war, capture some cities and then close the t/c?
[00:24] <+sike1> damn I feel like pointing fingers
[00:24] <@Eklektikos> we play one turn, in which we will be manouvering ourselves into position to declare war next turn chat and then go back to the fora and get some actual democratic decisions made on where the hell to put those cities
[00:25] * +BlueStrider as always wondered why polls are needed... If everyone agree's on something in the discussion you already know how the poll is going to turn out... waste of time
[00:25] <+plexust> just fortify the settler, get a poll up and do another tc tomorrow
[00:25] <+plexust> (including the one today)
[00:25] <+BlueStrider> If everyone does not agree in the discussion then that is when a poll is needed ;)
[00:25] <@Chieftess> That sounds good
[00:25] <@Chieftess> I think we needed the extra day to discuss.
[00:25] <+BlueStrider> Yup.... That sounds good.... play a turn and then quit
[00:25] <+bill_in_pdx> actually polls are not needed if everyone agrees Strider.  Show us the discussion where everyone agreed on city placement....or science for that matter
[00:25] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> it's a weekend, the forums are usually dead in the weekends..
[00:25] <@Eklektikos> ok, so
[00:26] <@Eklektikos> turn chat will finally start
[00:26] <+BlueStrider> bill: I was expressing city placement or science
[00:26] <+plexust> ok
[00:26] <+CivGeneral> k
[00:26] <+bleep_the_spy> g2g
[00:26] *** bleep_the_spy has quit IRC (QUIT: User exited)
[00:26] <@Octavian_X> great
[00:26] <@Eklektikos> checking instructions
[00:27] <@Eklektikos> Foreign Affairs --
[00:27] <@Eklektikos> Declare war on the Aztecs if the military department is ready to conduct an attack.
[00:27] <@Eklektikos> Ehecatl Atzin
[00:27] <@Eklektikos> Trade -
[00:27] <@Eklektikos> No known viable trades. The only exception is trading a contract to the Aztecs for their 18 gold. India has 21 gold, but needs nothing! (they have all contacts)
[00:27] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> that's me!
[00:27] <+bill_in_pdx> I believe that was on turn two per the Cyc plan right?
[00:27] <+sike1> correct
[00:28] <@Eklektikos> Domestic (without city placement instructions):
[00:29] <@Eklektikos> Valhalla: settler (1), settler (6), (If war is going well, a settler. If help is needed, Baracks)
[00:29] <@Eklektikos> Bavaria: warrior (2), warrior (2), spear (4), swords
[00:29] <@Eklektikos> Morgana: continue swords until further notice.
[00:29] <@Eklektikos> Continue roading the forest SW of Bavaria, then road the forest west of Morgana with both settlers. Then, depending on where our 2nd city it, mine the grasslands west of the eastern city, or, road the game on the western city (hill) - mine/road cattle afterwards
[00:29] <@Eklektikos> Fanatikan Department of Defense Turn Instructions
[00:29] <@Eklektikos> Move troops as followed inCyc's Suggested map. Move the units into the borders once war has been declared. More details about what to do after the capture of the two cities later 
[00:29] <@Eklektikos> Culture Department
[00:29] <@Eklektikos> Get this war started! 
[00:29] <@Eklektikos> After it's over, maybe we can devote a little more to cultural improvements!
[00:30] <@Eklektikos> Science:
[00:30] <@Eklektikos> Please continue the path to lit... if that is completed please move on to a path to monarcy
[00:30] <@Eklektikos> carrying out preturn instructions now...
[00:30] <+CivGeneral> :D
[00:30] <+CivGeneral> k
[00:30] <@Octavian_X> finally
[00:32] <+FortyJ-working> what have i missed?
[00:32] <@Octavian_X> nothing at all...
[00:32] <+CivGeneral> We are still in the preturn
[00:32] *** XPenguin (~java@=or60-512-60-212.nyc.rr.com) 4[joined] #demogame.
[00:32] *** ChanServ 4[voices] XPenguin
[00:32] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> hey Saam!
[00:32] <+FortyJ-working> are we going to war today?
[00:32] <+CivGeneral> Hi XPenguin
[00:32] <+XPenguin> hey
[00:32] <@Eklektikos> saving and uploading preturn...
[00:33] <+CivGeneral> Hope so 40j
[00:33] <@Chieftess> ok
[00:33] <+XPenguin> we doi anything?
[00:33] <@Octavian_X> nope
[00:33] <+FortyJ-working> Long live Fanatika!
[00:33] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> tell us about the city placement..like, where!?
[00:33] <+XPenguin> hi bill
[00:33] <+bill_in_pdx> hello
[00:33] <+XPenguin> Bill- COC rulling, if you please
[00:33] <@Octavian_X> we are quitting after turn 1 due to SAaM's lack of polls
[00:33] <+XPenguin> Zarn abdicated all power to me in a PM (which I have posted)
[00:33] <+XPenguin> ?
[00:34] <+XPenguin> what havent i polled
[00:34] <+bill_in_pdx> what ruling do you need SaaM?
[00:34] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> about city placement
[00:34] <+XPenguin> never mind
[00:34] <+XPenguin> its a thread
[00:34] * +BlueStrider doesn't want to see anything out of the const. tonight :(
[00:34] <+XPenguin> there was due discussion
[00:34] <+XPenguin> i took what was discussed and used it
[00:35] <+XPenguin> i was on between 2 and 5 today, so someone should have told me that i needed a poll
[00:35] <+BlueStrider> Saam: You have to post a poll.... Yes I know it's screwed up, but you have to ;)
[00:35] <+FortyJ-working> The Justice Dept has ruled that Chieftess is the only citizen who has received honors (due to lack of quorems in the polls), and since she has already named a city, the next city falls to Octavian. 
[00:35] <+XPenguin> that i said
[00:35] <+XPenguin> Octavium- spot A
[00:35] <@Octavian_X> it's Octavinium
[00:35] <+BlueStrider> Screw the Quorums..... everyone hates them
[00:36] <+XPenguin> sorry
[00:36] <+bill_in_pdx> Everyone is welcome to change the quorum laws...not sure what that has to do with polling for city placement
[00:36] <+XPenguin> bill- quick quorm stands as 13, correct?
[00:37] <+bill_in_pdx> and Strider, why is polling the people a bad thing?
[00:37] <+sike1> Mr. President, I say we let the Domestic Dept pick the spot for the city
[00:37] <+BlueStrider> Bill: I didn't say it's a bad thing.... but posting a poll on every single concept of the game makes it boring
[00:37] <@Octavian_X> again, i agree with cyc
[00:38] <@Chieftess> yeah - it can get tiresome to poll on every aspect.
[00:38] <+bill_in_pdx> SaaM, the quick poll quorum is 13
[00:38] <+bill_in_pdx> but polling on city placement is not a small issue
[00:38] <@Octavian_X> anyway, it won't apply for city placemnet
[00:38] <+bill_in_pdx> neither is polling on science
[00:38] <@Eklektikos> exactly
[00:38] <+sike1> no it's not
[00:39] <+XPenguin> not the city placement
[00:39] <+XPenguin> the border props
[00:39] <+bill_in_pdx> polling on citizen honors is a stupid unecessary thing in my opinion...but we seem to have no trouble getting polls going for that
[00:39] <+BlueStrider> Wasn't their a discussion somewhere on how citizen honors SHOULD not be required to have a quorum (I remember something about it)
[00:39] <@Eklektikos> preturn save uploaded: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Fanatika_1300BC_preturn.zip
[00:39] <+CivGeneral> :)
[00:39] <+sike1> ty
[00:39] <+XPenguin> 40Js border proposal has passed quick quorm
[00:39] <+sike1> This is not the forum
[00:39] <+BlueStrider> Bill: Actually the citizen honor polls aren't tiresome... I have a nice little program that does them automatically for me ;)
[00:39] <+XPenguin> NL, when he bothers to govern, is governor of Barvaria
[00:39] <+bill_in_pdx> Citizen honors do require a quorum because they impact the rules
[00:40] <+XPenguin> and domestic holds the governor ship to Valhalla and Morgana
[00:40] <+bill_in_pdx> Strider, you really do have a program for that?  That is cool
[00:40] <+CivGeneral> Were is NL's instructions? He is the govenor. *Sigh* and I though he was a good responsible govenor
[00:41] <+BlueStrider> Bill: Yup.... I didn't make it, but it's kind of fun to mess around with it (It's a real simple program through.... It's made just for the Citizen Honor polls :(
[00:41] <+sike1> nl needs the boot
[00:41] * +FortyJ-working is afk for a while (in case of spot votes...)
[00:41] <+bill_in_pdx> I am grumpy today because my U of Oregon lost...
[00:41] <+XPenguin> yea
[00:41] <@Eklektikos> NL is a "one term only" governor, I suspect
[00:41] <+BlueStrider> I'm the 5 term science leader :)
[00:41] <@Eklektikos> I'd boot him if I could, but he's not absentee...
[00:41] <+XPenguin> im running for gov of morgana/ penguin (falls into prov 2)
[00:41] <@Chieftess> I don't know if i should run for domestic, or governor. ;)
[00:42] <+bill_in_pdx> We need a new governor, and a new Judge Advocate
[00:42] <+BlueStrider> Hey one more term in science leader and I'd have been their for half a year!
[00:42] * +XPenguin bites his tounge, since hes already announced his candacy
[00:42] <@Chieftess> hmm...
[00:42] <+BlueStrider> We need a new RPG rule system and const. to, but everyone disregards that
[00:42] <+sike1> concentrate on the game strider, not your career
[00:42] <+plexust> hey! I'm running for morgana gov
[00:42] <+XPenguin> can we boot Leningrado for absenteism
[00:42] <@Chieftess> I think we need an overhaul. ;-)
[00:42] <@Eklektikos> everyone finished looking at the save yet?
[00:43] <+CivGeneral> yes
[00:43] <@Octavian_X> is that what we were doing?
[00:43] <+XPenguin> im just not top @ domestic since im running the department that needs the game the most w/o the game
[00:43] <+sike1> i can't mr. Prez, go ahead
[00:43] <@Eklektikos> ok
[00:43] <@Eklektikos> press enter?
[00:43] *** Ehecatl_Atzin has quit IRC (Connection Closed)
[00:43] <+CivGeneral> Sure
[00:44] <+plexust> yes
[00:44] <+sike1> is everything done?
[00:44] <+XPenguin> yea
[00:44] <+sike1> did you start the worker?
[00:44] <@Octavian_X> go ahead
[00:44] <@Eklektikos> yep, all preturn instructions were carried out
[00:44] <+XPenguin> so are we attacking this turn
[00:44] <+sike1> ok
[00:44] <+BlueStrider> Dang it.... 
[00:44] <+XPenguin> or has my lack of polling (but there was discussion, so you cant get me for that)
[00:44] <+BlueStrider> The electricty just went off
[00:44] <+XPenguin> screwed us over
[00:45] <+XPenguin> and your typing how?...
[00:45] <@Chieftess> battery backup, I guess.
[00:45] <@Eklektikos> pressing enter...
[00:45] <+BlueStrider> up
[00:45] <@Chieftess> 5-15 minutes left.
[00:45] <+sike1> must be
[00:45] <+BlueStrider> Yup
[00:45] <+XPenguin> yea
[00:45] <+XPenguin> myy laptop had 3hrs of battery
[00:45] <+BlueStrider> This computer is my only one with Battery Backup
[00:45] <@Chieftess> or 30. That's how long mine lasted.
[00:45] <@Chieftess> Laptop batteries are expensive!
[00:45] <@Eklektikos> Valhalla continues building settlers
[00:45] <@Chieftess> ok, back to the chat.
[00:45] <+XPenguin> 1.5, if playing civ w/o the plug
[00:45] <+XPenguin> ok
[00:45] * +BlueStrider is going to get on is handheld comp
[00:46] <+bill_in_pdx> I believe that you would be on sufficient legal ground to hold a spot vote to approve or disapprove of SaaM's city placement.  If it passes, I would place it there.
[00:47] <+XPenguin> so how many turns we going for tonight?
[00:47] <@Eklektikos> moving units...
[00:47] * +XPenguin does small in-chair victory dance
[00:47] <@Chieftess> hehe
[00:47] * +CivGeneral watches Xpenguin spinning around in his chair
[00:47] <+CivGeneral> hehe
[00:47] * @Octavian_X is tempted to slap him with a trout
[00:47] <+plexust> what's going on over there?
[00:48] <+XPenguin> two cities- octavianum and penguin
[00:48] *** Ehecatl_Atzin (Ehecatl@200.76.240.5k453=) 4[joined] #demogame.
[00:48] *** ChanServ 4[voices] Ehecatl_Atzin
[00:48] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> ...power outage
[00:48] <+BlueStrider> Hello Ehecatl
[00:48] <+XPenguin> at last, a city named for me with minimal corruption!
[00:48] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> hey Strider
[00:48] <+plexust> lol
[00:48] <+BlueStrider> Do we have to spot vote everything? Why not let the department make a decision without the choas?
[00:48] <+plexust> i hope i get one of those this deomgame
[00:48] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> must be the wind...never had that before
[00:49] <+XPenguin> so anyways........ we attacking yet?
[00:49] <+CivGeneral> Not yet. Next turn
[00:49] <+XPenguin> which plan?
[00:49] <@Octavian_X> yup
[00:49] <+bill_in_pdx> But I do defer to your judgement on thatr Ek.  It is just as valid to go back to the forums
[00:50] <+XPenguin> oh, how many turns till we have to hold the spot vote on wether or not my city placements are good?
[00:50] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> lol
[00:50] <+sike1> i will support a spot vote
[00:50] <+BlueStrider> I'm against a spot vote
[00:50] <+XPenguin> since i have to come yup with an abstract for the Intel Science Fair on human emotions and death
[00:50] <+CivGeneral> I have approved Cyc's suggested plan. But once the Capital and Talxcala is captured. We can send a small group to the city west of the capital
[00:50] <+XPenguin> strider- if we dont, we stop
[00:50] <@Eklektikos> Bill, that is an option... but I don't think that's what I want to do in this instance
[00:51] <+bill_in_pdx> No problem.
[00:51] <@Eklektikos> or what I ought to do
[00:51] <+plexust> i support a sopt vote
[00:51] * +XPenguin lets out a very loud groan
[00:51] <@Octavian_X> i support a spot vote
[00:51] <+plexust> *spot
[00:51] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> *abstain
[00:51] <+XPenguin> Spot vote: do you support a future spot vote. Y/N/A ;)
[00:51] <+BlueStrider> We had to redo one spot vote 6 times.... They cause choas + takes forever.... I am 100% against having a spot vote
[00:51] <+bill_in_pdx> Some of the best discussions in Game 1 were around city placement
[00:52] <@Chieftess> If we do this:
[00:52] <+plexust> y
[00:52] * @Chieftess 1,4[8,4 Spot Vote 1,4] 2-0
[00:52] <@Chieftess> it helps
[00:52] <+XPenguin> lets just do one......
[00:52] <+XPenguin> we complain about short chats
[00:52] <+XPenguin> and this si a chance to do a full 10 turn chat
[00:52] <+XPenguin> were yet to have one
[00:52] <@Chieftess> We haven't had one yet!
[00:52] <+CivGeneral> :D
[00:52] <+bill_in_pdx> I believe that the DP has full control as to stopping or not.  A spot vote on that is NOT valid
[00:52] <+BlueStrider> I say let stuck work it out.... We are suppose to pick/vote people for their skill.... Why do we make that skill useless then?
[00:52] <@Chieftess> The closest was 9, cut short by a net split!
[00:52] <+XPenguin> weve had preturn through 9, but NEVER 10
[00:53] <+XPenguin> bill- i was just joking
[00:53] * +CivGeneral hopes for a full 10 turns
[00:53] <+plexust> 10 10 10 10 10 10 10
[00:53] * @Octavian_X isn't really paying attention
[00:53] <+bill_in_pdx> SaaM....I know, I fogot my smiley
[00:53] <+sike1> :)
[00:54] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> a vote to do a spot vote....:S
[00:54] <+BlueStrider> NO SPOT VOTE!!!!
[00:54] <@Octavian_X> Spot vote!
[00:54] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> you know, there is such a thing as a way too democraticied democracy
[00:54] <@Chieftess> I can see the kids are growing restless. :)
[00:54] <+bill_in_pdx> Leaders are elected to organize and gain consensus of what the people want done...they are not elected to just go do whatever they wish
[00:55] <+BlueStrider> Ehecatl: That's what we ahve right now :)
[00:55] <+CivGeneral> No on spots, they are hard to get out ;)
[00:55] <+sike1> It's the DP's call
[00:55] <+bill_in_pdx> The turn chats have been short because we as a team, are not preparing for them very well....not because of the laws, or constitution...everyone needs to look in the mirror
[00:55] <+sike1> very true
[00:56] <+XPenguin> yea
[00:56] <@Chieftess> 12Now it's the Great Spot Vote Debates...
[00:56] <+BlueStrider> Bill: They should be elected for their skill in that office.... Yet.... If we not let the leader make one decision that skill becomes useless... They are defeated by people who don't know as much as they do
[00:56] <+CivGeneral> The other sequal
[00:56] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> yes, but we can't stop the game everytime something unexpected pops up
[00:56] <+XPenguin> yea
[00:56] <@Chieftess> Wow! An hour's gone by?
[00:56] <@Chieftess> that was quick.. :)
[00:56] <+XPenguin> if so, well be in 2004 when we finish
[00:57] <+BlueStrider> lol
[00:57] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> we must trust on the leaders' ability to lead
[00:57] <+sike1> city placement wasn't unexpected
[00:57] <+bill_in_pdx> City placement was not an unexpected event
[00:57] * @Eklektikos 1,4[ 8,4News Flash1,4 ] END OF TURN CHAT - Saving and uploading
[00:57] <+CivGeneral> I have seen The Great Tomato Debate, The Great Trade Debate, and now the Great Spot Vote Debate
[00:57] <+BlueStrider> lol
[00:57] <+sike1> ty Mr. President
[00:57] <@Octavian_X> i have a log of all this..
[00:57] <+bill_in_pdx> We seemed to have no trouble being prepared in game one with the same rule set....
[00:57] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> this isn't game 1
[00:57] <@Chieftess> 3Announcement: This is exactly what I knew would happen... we're starting to vote on everything possible! Even voting on if we should have a vote!
[00:57] <+CivGeneral> End of the turn Chats already? Darn
[00:57] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> CT, agreed
[00:58] <+plexust> this sucks!
[00:58] <+BlueStrider> Yup.... I agree with CT!
[00:58] <@Octavian_X> an hour a turn..
[00:58] <@Eklektikos> I can post the current statistics if anyone wants them
[00:58] <+BlueStrider> Eklek: I want them
[00:58] <@Octavian_X> please
[00:58] <+sike1> too bad we can't apply discussion in the same way, huh CT
[00:58] <+CivGeneral> You can goahead and post them Mr. Prez
[00:58] <+bill_in_pdx> Yes EA, this isn't game one, this one is pretty sucky, and frankly we are doing worse
[00:59] <@Octavian_X> mainly because we decided to go this one slower
[00:59] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> i don't think we are doing much of anything..
[00:59] <+BlueStrider> I think we are doing worst with the same set of rules in this game because people are trying to enforce the rules more
[00:59] <@Chieftess> bill - My sentiments exactly.
[00:59] <@Octavian_X> we must be able to let a few decisions slide
[00:59] <+XPenguin> yes
[00:59] <+BlueStrider> Exactl
[00:59] <+bill_in_pdx> such as city placement?
[00:59] <+BlueStrider> *Exactly
[00:59] <@Chieftess> And, look at how cramped the discussions and polls are.
[00:59] <+XPenguin> we need a ruling now
[00:59] <@Chieftess> We're playing a higher level too.
[01:00] <+sike1> this is more discussion than we get in the forums
[01:00] <+XPenguin> we should just go on
[01:00] <+plexust> we are going to lose at this rate and it will take a year to do so...
[01:00] <@Octavian_X> it isn't logical to poll every single thing...
[01:00] <@Chieftess> That's my point exactly!
[01:00] <+XPenguin> tup
[01:00] <+bill_in_pdx> Enforce the rules more?????  Jeez!  You must not be familiar with Shatian's reign in the Judicary...
[01:00] <+XPenguin> yup*
[01:00] <+CivGeneral> As Eyrei said, "Take it to the forums"
[01:00] <@Chieftess> That's what I knew would happen...
[01:00] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> no, it isn't
[01:00] <+BlueStrider> We need a const. reform.... We need to get rid of the crappy rules that everyone hates and replace them with rules that will help speed up the game.... not slow it down (IE: Quorums)
[01:00] <+XPenguin> WE SHOULD CONTINUE THE CHAT
[01:00] <@Chieftess> not again...
[01:01] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> a vote to decide to vote....absurd
[01:01] <+CivGeneral> I agree with the Penguin
[01:01] <@Octavian_X> quroums are not the problem..
[01:01] <+XPenguin> WE SHOULD CONTINUE THE CHAT
[01:01] <+XPenguin> CONTINUE
[01:01] <+XPenguin> CONTINUE
[01:01] <+plexust> yes, let's
[01:01] <@Octavian_X> i agree...
[01:01] <+CivGeneral> and the penguin has spoken
[01:01] <@Chieftess> Good thing eyrei wasn't here. He'd have a concussion by now. :)
[01:01] <+bill_in_pdx> You guys are honestly saying that getting the citizens view of where their cities should go is wrong?
[01:01] <+sike1> stop yelling penguin
[01:01] <+BlueStrider> Octavian: Quorums are part of the problem.... They slow the game down... In demogame I we did not enforce quorums.... Now we are and look at where we've gone?
[01:01] <+sike1> no, i'm not
[01:01] <+plexust> no, just polling it is stupid
[01:02] <@Chieftess> Yeah, and we only have 3 cities!
[01:02] <+XPenguin> ALL IN FAVOR OF CONTINUING
[01:02] <+bill_in_pdx> Getting the will of the people is stupid?
[01:02] <@Eklektikos> End of turn 1
[01:02] <@Eklektikos> 1275BC, 163 gold, -2 gpt, Literature in 33 turns
[01:02] <@Eklektikos> Sci/Tax/Lux = 1/9/0
[01:02] <@Eklektikos> Bavaria: Size = 4, Growth in --, Warrior in 1
[01:02] <@Eklektikos> Valhalla: Size = 2, Growth in 4, Settler in 6
[01:02] <@Eklektikos> Morgana: Size = 2, Growth in 12, Swordsman in 3
[01:02] <+plexust> we can talk about it and we can get the placement from the discussions
[01:02] <@Octavian_X> perhaps the quroums could be a tad lower, yes, but we shouldn;t get rid of them...
[01:02] <@Eklektikos> there you go
[01:02] <@Chieftess> Having quorums also forces the skill of the game on the people more.
[01:02] <@Eklektikos> preparing to upload save and log
[01:02] <+CivGeneral> Yea, possinly have it 1/4 of the citizens
[01:02] <+BlueStrider> Bill: No electing an offcial and not letting him do what he's good at is stupid
[01:02] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> @Bill -- it isn't stupid, but stoping the game everytime a decision must be made is
[01:02] <+bill_in_pdx> Quorums have nothing to do with why this chat is ending...no poll was posted
[01:03] <+plexust> we shouldn't have to poll it in the first place
[01:03] <@Eklektikos> yes, we should
[01:03] <+BlueStrider> I would support lowering the quorums & taking away the quorum requirment for some polls
[01:03] <@Octavian_X> look at it this way: every time we met a new civ, we stopped.  more often than not, there was no discussion involving the meeting.
[01:03] <+XPenguin> ALL IN FAVOR OF CONTINUING
[01:03] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> so a poll wasn't posted, we have representation of every office and citizen imput right here.We can solve this here and now
[01:04] <+XPenguin> yea
[01:04] <+plexust> aye
[01:04] <+BlueStrider> yup
[01:04] <@Eklektikos> continuing is not an option here anymore, Stuck
[01:04] <+XPenguin> military- here
[01:04] <+plexust> spot vote
[01:04] <+XPenguin> science- here
[01:04] <+XPenguin> trade- here
[01:04] * +CivGeneral wonders if Stuck has his Caps lock on
[01:04] <+XPenguin> FA- here
[01:04] <+XPenguin> domestic- here
[01:04] <+XPenguin> judiciary- here
[01:04] <+XPenguin> vp- here
[01:04] <+plexust> former governor- here ;)
[01:04] <+XPenguin> president- here
[01:04] <@Octavian_X> g2g
[01:04] <+bill_in_pdx> This is a demo game....you do have to poll for big decisions.  No one is saying poll for eveything...that is a strawman arguement....
[01:04] <+BlueStrider> OFFCIALS ARE ELECTED FOR THEIR SKILL IN THAT OFFICE.... IF THEY CAN NOT MAKE A DECISION ON THEIR OWN THEN WE SHOULD NOT HAVE ELECTED THEM!
[01:05] <@Chieftess> But, they do try to pick the best choices.
[01:05] <+bill_in_pdx> no, officials are elected to organize decisions in their respective areas...the will of the people must be followed
[01:05] <@Eklektikos> in this case that isn't even an argument, Strider
[01:05] <@Chieftess> Then have a discussion.
[01:05] <+BlueStrider> We are wasting are leaders skill sitting here making them poll everything
[01:05] <+plexust> agreed
[01:05] <+sike1> see you in the forums
[01:05] <+bill_in_pdx> You have a very high opinion of yourself and your skills strider
[01:06] <+BlueStrider> Bill: I am not saying anything about my skills at all....
[01:06] <+BlueStrider> I am talking about the council as a total.... not a single person
[01:06] <+bill_in_pdx> I think we have great talent, you included...
[01:07] <+bill_in_pdx> but, taking leadership is convincing people why you are right and gaining consensus
[01:07] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> this type of turn chat is getting repetitive
[01:07] <+XPenguin> yup
[01:07] <+bill_in_pdx> so leaders should have prepared right
[01:07] *** Octavian_X has quit IRC (Unknown)
[01:07] <+BlueStrider> Bill: and I do that..... the lit vs monarcy debates were favoring monarcy till a stepped in
[01:07] <@Chieftess> I think it got repetitous when we met the first civ.
[01:07] <+XPenguin> yea
[01:07] <+Ehecatl_Atzin> and when you gain leadership people trust you to make decisions they would normally have to decide on
Session Close: Sun Oct 20 01:07:58 2002